Ep #76: Your Toddler’s Defiance Decoded with Devon Kuntzman

Devon Kuntzman: During this time, your child realizes for the first time that they’re a separate individual. And so a lot of what they’re doing, their behaviors are all in service of becoming their own person, developing that sense of self for the first time. But it can be really, really hard because we will still relate to a child as an extension of us. And so we will take it personally when they push back against us, when they say no, when they look at us and do the opposite of what we just told them to do.

Welcome to Parenthood Prep, the only show that helps sleep-deprived parents and overwhelmed parents-to-be successfully navigate those all-important early years with their baby, toddler, and child. If you are ready to provide the best care for your newborn, manage those toddler tantrums, and grow with your child, you’re in the right place. Now here’s your host, baby and parenting expert, Devon Clement.

Devon Clement: Hello and welcome back to the Parenthood Prep podcast. Today we have a very special guest and I’m excited because it is a fellow Devon. It is Devon Kuntzman, and she recently wrote a book about parenting toddlers. Devon, tell us all about who you are.

Devon Kuntzman: Yes, well, thanks for having me. So I’m Devon Kuntzman, the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood. I founded Transforming Toddlerhood in 2018 with a mission to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible, and to really empower parents and caregivers to overcome the challenges while nurturing their little one’s development and creating confidence in their parenting skills through developmentally smart parenting tools and strategies. And I have a degree in psychology with a focus in child development, and I’m also an ICS certified coach.

Devon Clement: Oh, same.

Devon Kuntzman: And then I also was a nanny for many years all over the world for many high-profile families. And I had the pleasure of working with children in many different family systems, dynamics, unique personalities, and different needs and things like that. And so I got a really big education fast on how unique every child is and how there isn’t just a one-size-fits-all approach to working with a child. And also that the behaviors that drive us the craziest or make us the most nuts are actually usually developmentally appropriate behaviors, especially coming from kids ages one to five. And that all of those behaviors are actually communication, not your child trying to be bad, rude, manipulative, or just make your life miserable.

Devon Clement: One hundred percent. And I think it can be hard not to feel like they’re intentionally trying to make your life miserable.

Devon Kuntzman: Oh my gosh, yes.

Devon Clement: And I think it can, especially when you’re not somebody who’s been around a lot of little kids, to suddenly have this tiny tyrant in your house and not really know why they’re like this or when it’s going to change, or sometimes worrying that you did something wrong along the way in parenting to make them be like this, whether that’s refusing to try new foods or not wanting to get dressed and leave the house to go where you want to go. I think it can be really challenging, so I think it’s so valuable that there’s courses and people like you out there teaching parents what this all means. So what are some of your highlights, your top tips, or your top things that people ask you about?

Devon Kuntzman: Yes. Well, first I have parents DM me every day about the same topics over and over. One is just in general, is this normal? Parents want to know if a behavior is normal or not because whether it’s your first child or even your second child because every child is so different and unique, we are left wondering like, “Oh my gosh, should this be happening or is this a red flag?” Which is why in my new book, I actually have behavior red flags throughout the book to help parents discern, okay, is this typical behavior or is this outside the realm of what’s typical?

The other things that parents ask me about every day are tantrums, hitting and biting, whining, all of these behaviors that young children use to express their level of brain development, their lack of life experience and skills, their feelings and emotions, their sensory needs, their basic needs like hunger or being tired or needing to feel connection, or the developmental needs such as the need to experiment and explore, the need to move, to exert their will and have autonomy, have a role in the family, to feel capable, to have a sense of control. All of these are developmental needs and behaviors that we see are communicating all of these things.

So the biggest thing that I want parents to know when they’re asking all of these questions, your child’s behavior is not good or bad. It is communication. And when we can get curious about what the behavior’s trying to communicate and address that, then that’s how we truly transform the behavior. But it’s really, really hard to show up as the parent we want to be and to stay calm and to use developmentally smart tools when we’re looking at the behavior as bad or wrong. So the first thing we have to do is start shifting our mindset, the lens through which we see this behavior and what we make it mean about our child and what we make it mean about ourselves.

Devon Clement: Oh, one hundred percent. And that’s a big part of it, right? Like you’re going to respond differently in the privacy of your home versus if you’re like out in public and you’re worried that everyone’s judging you, or you’re in front of some family members that you feel like are judging your parenting and that kind of thing. Yeah, so I think that it’s so important to really understand that’s not what’s happening and that’s not, whether people are judging you or not, it’s not anything that you’ve done wrong.

Devon Kuntzman: Yeah. I know, and it’s so hard though, right? Because the reason this is so hard is actually because when we have a baby, babies relate to us as an extension of themselves and we often relate to our babies as an extension of us. And this is, and this is quite frankly how babies, right, survive and how we take care of them. It’s a really important mechanism for the growth and development and meeting the needs of a baby. However, once we start to get into 9 months to 15 months, your little baby is going to start transitioning into the toddler years. And during this time, your child realizes for the first time that they’re a separate individual. And so a lot of what they’re doing, their behaviors are all in service of becoming their own person, developing that sense of self for the first time.

But it can be really, really hard because we will still relate to a child as an extension of us. And so we will take it personally when they push back against us, when they say no, when they look at us and do the opposite of what we just told them to do. That can be really, really, really hard to be with. And so just knowing that this is all developmentally normal behavior for your child to become their own person makes it so much better because it’s not like you did something wrong here. It’s just your child trying to become their own person, but it’s really hard when you’re relating to them as an extension of yourself.

Devon Clement: That makes a lot of sense. Actually, a friend of mine said that to me recently. Her son is a toddler, and she said for like the first about what you said, like six to nine months of his life, she literally saw him as like a part of her body. She was pregnant with him, he came out of her body, and he did not become his own person until he started to get into that age of more independence. And who knows if it was because he was crawling at that point or what sort of triggers that difference, but it’s so interesting that you bring that up because I’ve had parents say that to me before. I think that you’re just trying to parent and do the best you can, and then these kids start throwing curveballs at you and it can be really challenging. So let’s talk tantrums. That’s such a big topic in toddlerhood. First of all, like how do you define a tantrum?

Devon Kuntzman: If we’re just being really neutral about it and just describing, okay, like what is it? It’s when a child becomes overwhelmed, whether they’re overwhelmed by their emotions or their sensory system, or they don’t like what is happening, they’re being faced with that lack of control and they have a reaction. So they start crying, kicking, screaming, could be hitting, throwing, whatever it is, but it usually involves crying. So this is a child releasing their feelings and emotions and also trying to effect change, right? Their way of protesting what they’re disappointed about or don’t like in hopes that maybe it could change.

And this is where some people get a little bit confused or it can get kind of technical, the idea of a tantrum versus a meltdown because sometimes tantrums, we like to define it as a tantrum is goal-oriented. You know, say you said your child can’t have a mango bar. This happened to me the other day. And then my son like went into a full-blown tantrum on the floor. That was more so in a goal-oriented way because maybe he can get that mango bar. But at the same time, so then a meltdown’s usually described as, you know, when a child just is losing control of their ability to function, right? Their feelings and emotions, they’re overwhelmed by them.

The thing is, is that in the early years, tantrums and meltdowns kind of go hand-in-hand because my son, yes, he would have liked that tantrum to make me give him a mango bar. But at the same time, the more he realized he wasn’t getting the mango bar, then he completely just dropped down into that fight or flight response and was so upset, overwhelmed by his feelings and emotions of disappointment and frustration. So the line is very blurred for that in the toddler years. So I just refer to tantrums as like, you know, all the things. It’s the emotional release, it’s the overwhelm, and sometimes they can also be goal-oriented, but that doesn’t make your child manipulative or rude. Children are wired to get their needs met however they can get their needs met.

Devon Clement: And not necessarily just needs. I mean, certainly he didn’t need a mango bar or else he would, in order to survive. Right. Well, maybe in his mind, but, well, right, they have a hard time distinguishing their needs from their wants or their routines. Like we talk about this a lot when we talk about sleep training and that kind of thing. Like if they’re crying in the crib, it’s not because they need anything from you. It’s that their routine is disrupted. It’s that they’re doing something differently and they’re having a hard time coping with that and they’re wired to protest until the thing that they believe to be a need is achieved. But when you can remind yourself he does not need a mango bar to survive, it’s going to be a lot easier to, I think, like what are your recommendations in that situation? I’m not going to, I’m not going to speak for you.

Devon Kuntzman: Right. Well, this is also why I created this recipe for developmentally smart discipline, right? Because discipline’s kind of like almost like for some people, they’re overly focused on discipline, and for other people, discipline’s like a dirty word, right? It like sounds really like harsh and mean or something. But at its essence, discipline is about teaching and learning skills for self-control. And so when we look at discipline through this lens, I created this recipe: creating connection, setting limits and following through, and teaching skills.

When we use all three of these elements of this recipe for developmentally smart discipline, this is where the magic happens. Because kids do need connection, they do need to feel seen and heard. However, if the only thing we’re doing is allowing them to feel seen and heard, but we’re not setting any limits or teaching any skills, then we’re really in this permissive place in parenting where the child has way too much power and their behavior’s going to snowball and escalate because limits actually create a container where kids feel safe. Even though they protest those limits, kids feel safe inside of those limits. On the other hand, if we’re only focused on setting limits and obedience, then we are missing the connection piece and the teaching skills piece, and children are not going to feel seen and heard. They are not going to have a strong parent-child relationship, that sense of connection, and we’re going to be wiring their brain more so around people-pleasing and fear than around confidence and like learning skills, right? Because the first five years are so important for brain development.

Devon Clement: Yes. Oh my god, one hundred percent.

Devon Kuntzman: Right. It’s so important. So every parenting struggle, I like to filter through using this recipe for developmentally smart discipline. So let’s just come back for the tantrum here. Your child’s having a tantrum about the mango bar. In that moment, I might say something like, “You really want this mango bar. It’s upsetting. I know.” And then, you know, I might say, “The mango bars are done now.” Something like this, you know, because usually it’s because he wants a second mango bar and I’m like, okay, we’re gotta draw the line here. And so, sure. So you are connecting, you’re setting the limit, and you might even say, “I know, it’s upsetting. You really wanted another one.” And then you have to just hold some space, let your kid have that emotional release. But here’s the challenge with the tantrums. First of all, less is more. We don’t want to over-talk or over-crowd them.

Devon Clement: Oh, god, yes. I see that all the time and I just want to be like, “Just shut up and just…”

Devon Kuntzman: Yes. Less is more. Less is more. You don’t have to continue validating. But, you know, you’ve said it, they feel seen and heard. They probably can’t hear you very much because they’re at the peak of their, you know, emotional release and they’re deep in that stress response. And then, the second thing that I want you to know about tantrums is if you sit there and don’t move forward, sometimes kids think, “Oh, they’re here. Maybe there’s still a chance something will change.” And so it’s harder for them to move on. So while it’s important to stay close for your child to help them feel supported, you can also come back and check on them. You don’t have to just be sitting right beside them the whole time.

What that might look like is here’s what I did. I walked over to his toys and I got out his bucket of trucks and I turned on a little Tonie, which is like a music player, right? I turned on Daniel the Tiger. And I started playing, setting up all his trucks. And within 30 seconds, he stopped crying and then came over, sat down beside me, and started playing. And within 2 minutes, it’s like nothing ever happened. But I guarantee if I would have just stood there waiting for him to move forward first, then the tantrum probably would have went on a lot longer. So that’s part of the teaching skills piece is like how do we find a way to move forward? And sometimes that skill is actually just figuring out a way to move forward. Other time, the skill is like problem solving skills, conflict resolution skills, but for a tantrum, often times in the beginning, it’s just looking at how do we move forward from here.

Devon Clement: So you’re teaching them the skill of sort of recovering from feeling those strong emotions and moving forward into a new activity.

Devon Kuntzman: Yes, the emotional resilience and that emotional regulation skills. And then, of course, you can talk about it later and you can practice some other skills as well, but you never want to practice a skill in the middle of the meltdown. You want to practice the skill when everyone’s calm.

Devon Clement: Right. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that a lot of the time we don’t necessarily think of that as a specific skill, like that emotional regulation. Certainly, I know plenty of adults who don’t have that capability. So thinking of it as something that we have to teach our kids that they’re not going to just have all on their own, that ability to move on to the next thing or to, you know, comfort themselves, you know, do what they need to do to recover to seek, you know, what they need from other people, from you and that kind of thing.

And so teaching them that and modeling that is so important and not just like staying stuck in that moment of the tantrum of the emotions. you know, something I talk to parents about when I’m talking about managing bedtime is you want to stay in the middle. You don’t want to go up high and be yelling and screaming like, “Yeah, I said go to bed.” But you also don’t want to get all the way down with them to the, “Oh, I’m so sorry that I’m trying to get you to go to bed. I’ll never do it again.” You know, you want to model that sort of calmness and that evenness and that regulation so that they’re also seeing you be able to manage yourself.

Devon Kuntzman: You bring up a really great point because it is true that most people don’t see this as a skill, and we often are holding kids to a higher standard than most adults are able to do themselves, which is part of the challenge here. And this is why also toddlers end up getting punished, right, for having big emotions, for having tantrums, for getting upset. They often times get punished for this. Because we don’t realize that this is a skill that kids need to learn. This is why we find in all of these surveys that parents of two and three year olds feel like their child should be able to not have a tantrum. Their child should be able to stop themselves from having a tantrum, which is just not developmentally possible at two and three years old.

Devon Clement: Totally, totally. I remember friends of mine, their daughter was, yeah, maybe like one and a half or two, and they were like upset that she didn’t want to like eat the healthy food that they provided and she was always asking for like yogurt or this or that she wanted. And they were really like in this mindset of like, “Well, we have to force her to like eat the food that we want her to eat and like punish her” and all this stuff. And I’m like, she is so young and this is so normal for the age. but they thought that if they didn’t do that, she was never going to eat healthier food and she was never going to like have a varied diet because they had to fix it like right then at this young age. So I think knowing, you know, what kids are developmentally capable of at different stages is so important also.

Devon Kuntzman: Absolutely. It really is and just knowing that even at one and two years old, kids have such little life experience. So things that we think are just like second nature, kids don’t know, right? They just don’t know. They don’t know what’s the proper way to like sit at the table and eat dinner, right? They, this is a new skill. This is, they don’t have a lot of life experience here. Or like they should just know how bedtime’s supposed to go or things like this. And also knowing that the more that we push a child into doing something, especially in toddlerhood because they are trying to become their own person, they’re developmentally wired to push against us. So the more we push, they’re going to push back. It’s going to create a lot of power struggles. And it also depends on your child’s temperament.

If you have a child who has a mild temperament, then whenever you try to force them, they’re probably going to comply because they’re afraid of losing your unconditional love and acceptance. And so they would rather please you than have that fear inside of them, right? And so kids do what it takes to survive. And so this is where you see a lot of like people-pleasing tendencies. And then if you have a child who’s very strong-willed, well, they’re still afraid of losing your unconditional love and acceptance, and when they’re really strong-willed, they’re going to push back against us, right? And so we’re going to be stuck in a lot of power struggles and have a child who’s more likely to rebel or hide things from us because they don’t want to get punished, right? And so they just get more clever.

And so it’s just so important to know that when it comes to parenting, control is an illusion. You really can’t force your child to be happy, to chew food and swallow it, to go to the bathroom, to close their eyes and fall asleep. They are in charge of themselves and their own bodies. And what we can do is we can influence them, positive influence or negative influence, right? We can use manipulation, fear and coercion to create an illusion of control, but it doesn’t help out anyone in the long term.

Devon Clement: It’s so true. I actually remember telling my coworkers, I used to be a teacher and I had aids and they were all these like older women who had like teenage kids or like preteens, and they would talk about how, oh, I’m not going to let my daughter go to parties and this and that. And meanwhile, I’m in like my early twenties just coming out of this like high school stage. And I was like, listen, at the high school parties, there’s two groups of kids. There’s kids whose parents know where they are and there’s kids whose parents don’t know where they are. And if you’re that authoritarian like, “My daughter’s not allowed to go to parties,” she’s going to go to parties. She’s just not going to tell you. And then that’s worse. You know, when you don’t have that trust and you don’t have that openness and that ability to communicate because they’re so scared of punishment or whatever, but not scared enough to not do it, just scared enough to not tell you.

Devon Kuntzman: Yeah. And then what happens is you have a child who’s not doesn’t feel safe coming to you for like the big things, right? And so say that they’re in trouble, something happens at that party. or maybe they’re more likely to give in and like listen to their peers or, you know, just unable to really have that trust in the relationship because gosh, when we think about the teen years, like I mean, I really, really, really, really want a teen who’s going to tell me what’s going on.

Devon Clement: Yeah. Right. So basically, you know, what we’re saying is that the parenting that you do in the early years is going to carry through your child’s whole life. So it’s important to really set up for success in this one to five age range with creating that connection and teaching those skills because that’s really going to help you out down the road. It’s not like, “Oh, we just need to get through these few years and then everything will be fabulous.” Like you need to get through these few years with your kids learning these new skills. And I love this three-step framework because as anyone who’s ever worked with kids and parents knows, there are the ones that are on opposite ends of the spectrum of the way too permissive, thinking that they’re being gentle by making everything about connection and relationships, and then the ones that are so authoritarian that everything’s about discipline, and then they don’t have that connection. And neither one of those like leads to their kids having those skills, right?

Devon Kuntzman: Yes, and this is why I actually dedicate a chapter of my book to this topic, understanding your role as a parent, to really illustrate and help us think through the different roles and how we can show up and then what we know from the research about what creates the best outcomes. And coming in as that authoritative parent or what I like to call the confident leader and guide, this is how we really show up as someone who’s in charge, not someone who is in control, but someone who is in charge. And that tends to go so much better because we’re basically creating limits and setting up the container, but taking our child’s needs and feelings and emotions into account at the same time. So everyone’s needs are taken into account.

Devon Clement: Can you clarify a little bit more about what the difference is between sort of being in charge versus being in control?

Devon Kuntzman: So when we are in control, we’re really focused on winning, we’re focused on obedience. It’s like this my way or the highway type of mentality where, you know, kids should be seen, not heard. You should listen to me because I’m the parent, no matter what. No matter what you feel, no matter what you think, no matter what your idea is. That’s what it looks like to really try to chase and uphold this illusion of control. Then on the other end of the spectrum though, it’s this idea of really just pacifying and walking on eggshells and doing what it takes to not upset your child and never setting any limits. And that’s what it looks like when the child has all of the control, which then makes behavior even worse. On both ends of the spectrum, behavior just continues.

The reason that in the permissive it continues is because children don’t have that sense of safety from coming up against those limits. And so, really, when we’re in charge, what we’re talking about here is that we are a partner with our children. Now, it doesn’t mean we’re equals, but it means you’re willing to partner with your child. You see their feelings, emotions, and needs. You validate their experience, but you still set limits and follow through on them. It’s about being in charge and teaching skills. So you might problem-solve together, practice what to do next time. Those things, it’s very collaborative. So even though you are still the one who is the leader, there’s a partnership and collaboration there that makes a strong relationship and a strong foundation.

Devon Clement: Okay, I love that and that really explains the difference between the two because I think for a lot of people they would not be able to distinguish those necessarily, especially in terms of kids.

Devon Kuntzman: And I can give an example to illustrate it too.

Devon Clement: That would be great.

Devon Kuntzman: So let’s just take like the dog’s water dish, for example. Toddlers love playing in water.

Devon Clement: Sure.

Devon Kuntzman: So let’s just say your toddler is over and just all of a sudden splashing in the dog’s water dish. If you’re coming from a place of control, you might say something like, “Hey, I told you not to do that. How many times do I have to tell you not to do that? You need to go in time out. Go over there and think about what you did. You do not go in there.” Something like this, right? Because we’re not taking in the child’s feelings, emotions, and needs into account at all. It’s all about just compliance.

Then if we’re talking about being in charge and we’re going to take the child’s feelings, emotions, and needs into account, but also within our boundaries, it might look something like, “Oh, I see you playing the dog’s water. Looks like you really want to play in water, and this is the dog’s water. It stays in the dish. Come here, let’s move away from this. What could we do so you could play in water? Hmm, do you want to wash these dishes in the sink? Should we go take a bath? Should we go outside and play in the water table? You don’t have to give all those options, but basically, you come up with a solution. And you can either come up with a solution or you can give your child a choice between two things and let them choose. But now we are taking our child’s needs into account and their emotions because we preserve the connection and the relationship, but we are still setting and following through on limits and having boundaries so our kid isn’t just running amok doing whatever they want.

Devon Clement: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s something that parents are sometimes a little bit afraid to do, like that they might be rewarding the child for the behavior that they’re, the undesirable behavior we’ll call it because it’s not, you know, necessarily good or bad. It’s just something that they’re doing because they want to do it and it’s in front of them and they have poor impulse control. “Oh, well, if they’re splashing in the dog’s water and then we start playing with the water table, then that’s like rewarding them for doing something that we see as undesirable.” But I, that’s not really how it works in their brains, right?

Devon Kuntzman: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, this isn’t a reward here. I feel like a reward would be like either let them keep playing, right, even though it’s against your boundaries. I also feel like a reward here might be like literally giving your child a reward like, “Oh, you’re playing the dog’s water dish. Let’s go watch some TV or let’s go get some candy” or something like this, right? But a lot of parents do think that somehow just by giving our kids the benefit of the doubt and taking their development and their needs into account, we’re rewarding them. But that’s not what we’re doing. We’re actually responding in a developmentally smart way where we are supporting our children, meeting them where they’re at developmentally, and helping them develop skills and good decision-making for the future by showing them what they can do. If you’re constantly just yelling at your child, punishing your child, and telling them what not to do, they never actually learn what they can do. So the behavior isn’t going to change and your child’s not going to learn that self-control for the future. Maybe that behavior will go away, that specific one, but more behaviors will happen because they didn’t learn that self-control.

Devon Clement: Yeah, I love that. And that’s such a good example of a situation that people have seen, I’m sure, come across many times, kids, you know, playing somewhere that they’re not supposed to be. And if you stop and sort of acknowledge what they’re looking for in a that moment and figure out a way to redirect them, it’s so much better than, like you said, putting them in time out or something like that because also, I think a lot of the time they don’t necessarily understand the difference between their water table and the dog’s water dish, especially if they’re on the younger side, like between one and two and a half or so. Like, it could all be the same to them. They don’t think to themselves, “Oh, this is the dog’s water and I don’t want to splash it all over the floor.”

Devon Kuntzman: No, no, because toddlers live in the moment. And this is what when the more we understand our child’s brain development and their development in general, then the easier it is to respond in a developmentally smart way because we’re not looking at it as bad behavior. So what we know is that the part of the brain that’s responsible for logical thinking, impulse control, empathy, emotional regulation, all of this, this part of the brain doesn’t start to mature at a more rapid pace until three and a half to four years old. So what we know is that toddlers live in the moment. They’re living in the moment. They’re not thinking about what’s going to happen next because the part of the brain that’s responsible for planning isn’t very mature. They’re just thinking about, “Look, here’s water. It looks like fun. Let’s experiment and explore,” which they’re developmentally driven to do. So I love that you said that because they absolutely are not discerning those things. They’re living in the moment and just trying to act out their needs and get their needs met.

Devon Clement: Yeah, exactly. That was something that looking back on my own childhood, I sort of realized, you know, this is maybe when I was a little older, but like my mom would tell me to go clean my room and I just literally did not know how to do that. It was not something that came naturally to me. That’s not how my brain works. So I would start like by, “Oh, I’ll put things away in this drawer.” But then I need to organize the drawer and then it would end up being a bigger mess. And I still to this day am like that, but I had to learn those skills. And she just could not comprehend, you know, I was smart, I was capable, why can I not just go clean my room when it was something that was so easy for her or for my sister or for, you know, other people? So acknowledging that your kid also just has an individual way that their brain functions is such an important part of it as well.

Devon Kuntzman: So what is another example of where people could use this three-step recipe in a situation to resolve that situation and move forward with some learning maybe even on both sides? We can use just about any situation. Maybe it is leaving the playground, right?

Devon Clement: Sure.

Devon Kuntzman: So, leaving the playground, your child is having so much fun. So we want to create some connection here. So we walk up to them and we, you know, get down on their level, maybe put a hand on their shoulder and say, “You’re having so much fun, and it’s time to leave the park in five minutes. What’s the last thing you want to do before we go? Do you want to do the slide or do you want to do the swings?” Okay, so then you get them going on their last thing. And then maybe they say, “No, I want to climb the thing.” You say, “Okay, we’re going to climb the thing one last time and then we’re going.” Okay. So then they do the thing. And then you come up to them and say, “Okay, now it’s time to go. Say bye, park. We had so much fun today.” And then say they start to push back, and they’re like, “I don’t want to. No.”

You can say something like, “I know. You love the park so much.” This is the creating connection piece. “You love the park so much. You wish you could stay here all day. And it’s time for us to go. We’re going to go home and eat lunch and have so much fun. Do you want to walk? Or do you want me to give you a piggyback ride? Something like this, or do you want to race me to the car or do you want to hold hands skipping? You know, whatever the thing is. And then if your child really, really, really just doesn’t want to do it, you have to help them move forward. So you might say something like, ‘I see you’re having a hard time leaving. I know it’s so hard to leave and it’s time to go.’ So see, we did the connection, setting limits. And then you come back to, ‘I’m going to pick you up, and I’m going to walk you to the car now.’ And even if your child’s kicking, screaming, upset, you just bring them to the car. You follow through on the limit.

Devon Clement: Mhm.

Devon Kuntzman: And then later, in a calm moment, you can talk about, “Hey, I noticed that was so hard for you to leave the park earlier. What happened today?” Especially if they’re a little older, and then you can say, “What can we do next time to make that better?” And then work on those problem solving skills for next time.

Devon Clement: Oh, I love that. And sometimes they’ll have some pretty good ideas.

Devon Kuntzman: Oh, yeah, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. And that’s also part of what it means to be in charge, right? You’re being a partner. You don’t have to have it all figured out. You can include your child in the problem-solving process, and it takes all the pressure off of you. Whereas if you’re trying to be in control, your child’s not involved at all and all the pressure is on you. But whenever you include your child, not only are you creating buy-in, but you’re also making your life easier by not having all the pressure on you to have it figured out.

Devon Clement: Absolutely. I love that. It’s collaborative, but you are still the head because again, sometimes the pendulum swings too far to that permissive side. I remember I was with a little boy I was taking care of and we were at the park and I knew all the moms in the community. I was like friends with them. And another woman and her son, the two little boys were playing together, and my little boy that I was taking care of was kind of quiet and we were working on having him be a little more assertive.

So I didn’t want to like step in and get involved right away in their interaction, but the other little boy started throwing sand at him. And I was like waiting for him to stand up for himself or get out of the way. I’m just watching the interaction. Like, you know, it wasn’t horrible. It wasn’t like going in his face, but the other mom, you know, was saying to her son like, “Let’s check in. How do you think that makes him feel?” while the kid is like actively throwing sand at this other kid. And I was like, there’s a time and a place for that, but like step one is stop doing that, you know? Like and it was just such a lesson for me and like this is not the full picture of how you do this. It’s certainly part of it.

Devon Kuntzman: Exactly. If there’s an unsafe behavior happening, like this is such a good example. I’m so glad you said this. Like throwing sand is an unsafe behavior, right? This can get in people’s eyes, like this is not a safe behavior.

Devon Clement: Well, that was going to be my next question to ask you is, what do you do when they are doing something extreme that is unsafe or is hurting another child or hurting themselves or hurting property, you know, they’re about to color on the table with a marker or they’re hitting the wall with a toy truck or just something where like…

Devon Kuntzman: Yes. So then we have to do a pre-step to this three-step process. There’s a pre-step. That pre-step is called establish safety. So you’re going to want to establish physical safety and then establish that emotional safety. And quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if your child has an unsafe behavior or not because even if your child is just crying, we can still perceive that as a threat when we’re in a stress response and we’re feeling triggered. So in those moments, then we really can feel like we are unsafe. And so we have to tell ourselves, “This is not an emergency. I am safe, my child’s safe.”

And then focus on grounding ourselves, getting calm. Because it doesn’t matter if you respond to a behavior five minutes later, 15 minutes later, or 50 minutes later. As long as everyone is safe, then it doesn’t matter. Then you can take the time you need to get calm, to get grounded, and then address what happened. And I think that’s the biggest myth and the biggest challenge we’re up against in parenting is this false sense of urgency that we have when we’re stuck in a stress response.

Devon Clement: So that’s so interesting. I’m a little surprised by that, honestly, that you can take so much time and that the kid will sort of remember the situation and you can address it at a different time. Because that does go against what I think you hear a lot that things need to be addressed in the moment.

Devon Kuntzman: Yeah. I mean, like if you’re going to try to address this like the next day with a one-year-old, like that’s just not going to work. Sure. Right? Now, if you’re trying to address it the next day with a four-year-old, yeah, they’re going to remember, right? So you have to like take their development into account, but here’s the thing. As long as everyone’s safe, physically safe, it’s better to not launch into using blame, shame, guilt, judgment, and fear on your one and two-year-old. It’s better to take the time to calm yourself and get grounded, even if it’s not the perfect timing of addressing it afterwards. You’re still coming out ahead because you didn’t berate your child in that moment.

Devon Clement: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I know a lot of times people react emotionally in the moment and it’s really hard not to, especially when your brain is turning up all these thoughts about your own parenting or who’s judging you or what’s going on. And you can have that emotional response and then you feel so guilty that you end up, you know, apologizing to your kid, which, you know, you should do if you react harshly or negatively to them. But then the whole experience sort of becomes about something different than them learning a new skill or being aware of a behavior that they’re doing that’s unsafe or hurtful. So it can really, I think, distract from the situation at hand if you are not in your sort of best frame of mind when you’re responding to it.

Devon Kuntzman: Well, because children just aren’t able to learn whenever they’re in a stress response as well. So if a child is experiencing fear, they’re in that flight or free stress response, they’re not actually going to be able to learn what to do next time. And it’s also up to us because children are emotionally attuned to where we’re at. And so feelings and emotions are contagious. Like there’s actually research about how kids mirror our emotions and I put all this brain science in my book. And so it’s just so important to know that in these moments when we have to choose between, you know, calming ourselves down or addressing what just happened, as long as everyone is physically safe, you’re better off creating that emotional safety, even if you might have missed that like exact perfect moment to address the behavior because there’s going to be plenty more opportunities. You’re better off learning to calm yourself again and again, so then you can address it in an empowered way that is supportive for both you and your child.

Devon Clement: That is so tremendous and such an important part of that. And I think we’ve learned so much from you today. I love this three-step process. I’m going to start using it with my clients and recommending your book. Do you have any final tips or any salient points you’d like to share?

Devon Kuntzman: Out of everything we said today, I know that it’s easier said than done. That especially if you’re just starting out. And I just want you to know that you do not have to be a perfect parent to be a good parent. You have to be a parent who’s willing to be human, who’s willing to practice, who’s willing to make mistakes, fall down, learn from it, and try again. Because practice makes progress, not perfection. So when we’re willing to practice and take that opportunity each and every day to practice again, that’s where the real growth and connection happens. So don’t feel like you have to do any of this perfectly. You’re allowed to mess it up. You’re allowed to repair. You’re allowed to practice. You’re allowed to try again. And there’s a tremendous amount of learning, growth, and love inside of that.

Devon Clement: I love that. I think that’s so important and it’s something that people really can take to heart in this parenting journey because so many of my clients I work with are so successful in their careers, in their education. They have so many accomplishments, and then this little person comes into their world and just knocks them on their butt. Like nothing ever has before. And just realizing that it’s a process that you’re learning from, I think really goes a long way. So tell us where we can find you online.

Devon Kuntzman: Yes, so you can find me on Instagram at Transforming Toddlerhood or at TransformingToddlerhood.com You can find my book wherever books are sold including Amazon or just go to TransformingToddlerhood.com/book.

Devon Clement: Amazing. I love Bookshop.org for buying books online and uh they support independent booksellers. So we always recommend them for buying books. I love that. We will definitely hear more about this and I would love to learn more from you. So I will start following you as well and probably reach out when I have questions.

Devon Kuntzman: Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me today.

Devon Clement: Of course, of course. Thank you for coming. This has been so informative and I really love it and I’m going to continue recommending you to all of the toddler parents that I know.

Devon Kuntzman: Thank you.

Devon Clement: Take care.

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